How Osteopathic Manipulation Can Help Your Pain, Injuries, Headaches, Urination Issues, and even Pneumonia with Dr. Jay Danto, DO, Founder of Danto Osteopathic Clinic

Transcript (forgive the misspellings and mistakes as this is all AI!)

Hey everyone, Welcome to Health is power again. I am super excited to introduce you guys to Dr. Danto. He is a Do and uh, he was actually my teacher at the Osteopathic Cranial Academy, where I took 40 h to learn cranial osteopathy for a lot of conditions, especially headaches, concussions, even issues with vision problems. And so I learned so much from him and he is just a wealth of information because he's really helped a lot of osteopathic medical schools from the ground up.

11:30 - Anna Esparham

He's written books, he's had over 20 years of practice, and he has a great private practice. Right now, north of Kansas City. And I am referring many of my patients and clients too. So welcome. Dr.. Dante.

11:50 - Dr. Jay Danto, DO

Thank you, Ana. I really appreciate you inviting me. And it's such an honor to be here and follow her. And I'm very, very excited to be here. Thanks.

11:59 - Anna Esparham

That's awesome. So. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background? I just hopefully I did some justice to it, but tell us where you got started and why you really went down this osteopathic path.

12:16 - jaydanto

Well, I, I wish it was something very, moving and fun, fundamental and, and something that's life changing, you know, in some ways it is, but I, I think it was almost sheer, you know, sheer dumb luck. I don't like to say dumb luck, but yeah, sheer dumb luck. I was had to apply to apathic and osteopathic schools. I had a holistic minds that I thought I was gonna have to go to like an Md school and a chiropractic school because uh, I had been exposed to chiropractic and I thought, you know, there's more to Um, human medicine to taking care of people than just giving them medications.

13:01 - jaydanto

I thought that, you know, the body must, you know, plays an important role and I saw that as something that was going to be very important in my future. Was a Michigan State University undergrad person. I went there for my degree in bachelor's psychology, and I Knew there was osteopathic school there. I knew there was a school of human medicine there. Didn't know that much about osteopathy other than I had an osteopathic physician who was. I have a few osteopathic physicians. Who were my physicians growing up, as well as my pediatrician was an Md.

13:39 - jaydanto

So it's very eclectic in Michigan. In Michigan, you It's a very Deo friendly state, but across the country. It's like oti offi is this little secret that nobody, if there's not everybody, is telling what the differences are between osteopathic medicine and allopathic medicine. And currently I wish it was going, I wish I could say something different, but it looks like the trends are going towards, osteopathic medicine becoming more aligned with allopathic medicine instead of continuing to be.

14:21 - jaydanto

Tremendously distinct and uh, and different. So, so that's, that's entirely an aside to what you asked me, which is like, how did I get involved? And uh, so I, I was at Michigan State University, I got accepted. To the Do school. The, which was actually better school than the Md schools. It was rated higher. Everybody knew it was better. Was a really easy decision. I was accepted. I was waitlisted at another Md school and state. I didn't want to go out of state. That wasn't something that was You know, family is very important to me.

14:55 - jaydanto

I did not want to be far from my family and so being in Michigan State, it was a very, easy choice for me. And uh, I, I started off in like the 1st week, on the 1st day they had somebody, Dr. Lan Hoover, who, father like actually is credited with inventing a technique of manipulation and you know. So you know, Law eventually taught me that technique and I'm one of the one of the people who practices it. That's not a commonly taught technique. We taught it for a little bit of Michigan State, but as far as I knew there, as far as I know, other than those few years that I was there and we had taught it when Lan was there.

15:38 - jaydanto

Lana since passed and we don't teach it. The meta factor was called functional and There was another, Dr., at Michigan State, who tried to break it down and basically invented a different technique, and his technique is called functional now, and Dr. Hoover's technique is called Hoover technique. But anyway. So Lan sat there and you know, he said, osteopathy is different and here's how it's different. And you, you know, if you want an osteopathic education, it's available for you here, but you have to want it, you have to go and find it.

16:13 - jaydanto

And that sounded, you know, very interesting to me. I wanted to learn more about Osteo. It was really neat to, you know, this concept that I didn't have to go and go to two schools to learn about, treating the human body was uh, exciting to me. So, throughout my medical school, career I I probably did about a hundred to two hundred hours extra training and manipulation each year um went to all sorts of conferences I did that right through residency as well I was a table trainer for the omm department for class for a whole bunch of the electives.

16:57 - jaydanto

We used to have electives in manipulation We no longer do. It's all pretty much. The curriculum is very similar throughout the country, with different emphases and different things. You know, and it's, it, it was interesting to be part of that curriculum discussion and to see that and see the way different people taught at Michigan State and uh, you know, they just lit me up with, this fascination of understanding the human body and it, you know, I went on rotations. I was, I was very fortunate because, you know, I was offered, residencies.

17:44 - jaydanto

Right through almost every rotation. It was just fantastic. So it was a good, a lot of things, but I, I was especially good at osteopathic manipulation. So I ended up doing my residency and family practice. I did a track internal medicine year and but everywhere I went, everybody wanted me to do manipulation. I, when I was in my ending, My student rotations at Pana Osteopathic Hospital. The medical director called me in and he said, Uh Jay, we want you to set up an Om clinic. You basically have a blank check.

18:24 - jaydanto

Michigan State is requiring this, so we have to do that. You know, it wasn't like, oh, we want to do this, it was more of a, it was a requirement. So he says, you go ahead and take care of this and get it done for us, you know. To enter my internship. And I, you know, I, my friends were, were going through their internships and I was like, it's really hard to go through an internship. And they want me to open up a clinic that I didn't say I wanted to do. It's like I'm just learning, I want to learn.

18:51 - jaydanto

And they, so I kind of ended up going to another hospital and You know, while I was there I got exposed, you know, it's like I think in my 1st You know, everyone knew right away that I, you know, did manipulation. It was very funny when, when I was a student in my 1st week that because, you know, my friends were already at that hospital, they said they asked me to go and see another, they asked me to go see a patient because uh, the patient had pain. It was, they thought it was casto chondrite and uh, you know, I went and treated the patient, you know, I would make, that was making the pang away.

19:35 - jaydanto

With each rib I treated and the patient would look at me like, How'd you do that? And I'm like, this is just what osteopathy does. And You know, it was just such a blessing to have that right along the way. I mean every time, every time I thought, I would, I was learning something and I got supported by patients, but I went ahead and uh, learned cranial my 1st time, you know, I, I came out of my 40 hour chorus, got back to school, you're gonna love this story. I got back to school and um, in an Wm class the 1st week back in comes one of my uh, friends and she says, Jay, you went to that cranial course, right?

20:18 - jaydanto

And I'm like, yeah, she I got a headache, would you mind working on me? And I said, sure. So she lays down and I put my hands on her head and you know, I'm health pain in her head and I've got one hand. This is, you know, her side, one side of her head is flat, one side is round, the side that's flat is not moving. The side is round, is moving. I'm like, wow, this is like a side bending rotation. It's like I knew right away what it was and I sat there and I didn't remember anything very. M I remember it a little bit from the course I sat there and I treat, I treated he sutures.

20:50 - jaydanto

You know, I, I did the venous sinus, you know, drainage technique, which is a fantastic technique for headache patients, was actually designed for headache patients. And I got and I went ahead and I got done treating her and both sides felt round and both sides were moving and you know, so she gets off. Herr name is Am Mari. Amy gets off and she says to me, she feels her head, she goes and she feels the top of her head. I'm like and she says, wow, my headaches gone. And she says and the uh, anterior Fontaine that never closed up, that gets spread apart whenever I get my tension headaches has closed.

21:31 - jaydanto

And I there she could put her finger about a quarter of an inch. Into her where that spot was. And so it's like Closed up from the manipulation and I sat there,

21:37 - Anna Esparham

Wow.

21:41 - jaydanto

I said, well, that's pretty direct feedback.

21:44 - Anna Esparham

No joke.

21:45 - jaydanto

I, Very lucky and I had a lot of great experiences like that whenever I you know, wanted to wherever I want. I went to do cardiology rotation and there was somebody who had back pain and you know, this is when I was a student and the so, the so the resident sits there, says cardiology reside and says, Hey Jay, you're good at that manipulation stuff, would you go and see the patient, go and see the patient and I'm treated, treat him, I treat his back pain and we're rounding later in the day.

22:16 - jaydanto

And the cardiologists, you know, trying to recruit me, he's like, you know, he, he's at the very least trying to recruit me to the hospital, let alone potentially into cardiology. Because he knew, you know, because I was a good, a good student and he sat out there and, and everywhere. He said, this is my, I know in, this is my outstanding medical Co student, Dr. Dante. And he would introduce me every patient. And so we go in and he's, but he's going through, he's going through his residence, he's going through his fellows, he's going through the intern and then he goes and he says, and this is, and before you get a, get a chance to say who it was, the, this patient say, say said, oh, that's the guy who cured me because he was there.

22:57 - jaydanto

It was a, it was a courtesy consult. This wasn't a day when they used to do courtesy consults.

23:01 - Anna Esparham

Oh,

23:01 - jaydanto

you know, because He was a cardiology patient,

23:02 - Anna Esparham

yeah.

23:04 - jaydanto

they would consult the cardiology department. But the reason why he was consulted was couldn't urinate. So he couldn't urinate. And he was consulted. And so he had prostate cancer. It was prostate removed. They had a radiation, They did it, twice on him. Okay, they did two surgeries on them, you know? So you was like, there is no reason this guy should not be able to urinate. I go in there, I treat him. And not only did his back pain go away all of a sudden, he could urinate was discharged that day.

23:37 - jaydanto

So it's like I, I was been, I've been very fortunate that I've, had these great experiences. I had patients I was consulted for, Chronic. Kidney infections Have you ever seen with somebody with chronic kidney infections? You know,

23:54 - Anna Esparham

yes.

23:54 - jaydanto

You know, it's just, you know, a young person, young, a young lady, she was, you know, consulting, you know, and so I went in there, and that was almost the same. You know, palp toy findings as that guy who had the prost, who had the, you know, the urinary problems from the prostate. I just was fascinating. This was before I really learned, how to do visceral manipulation, how to do kidney Mr manipulation. So it's, it's just my employing to me. Some of the things that we've seen and we do, you're gonna be in Kirksville, you're, you're gonna find that you're consulted in a lot of, patients who have pneumonia and uh, it's, you know, One of the common things we used to do or that used to be part of physical examination was you'd feel the ribs for respiratory excursion.

24:46 - jaydanto

They found that if you feel the ribs for respiratory excursion and this is added the gowns and gowns, which is the uh, allopathic, you know, original physical examination book and they said if the, it was, they said this is the, the main test you got to do to see if the ribs are moving when somebody's breathing, you know. Sure enough. We you know it's a more powerful test and listening with a stethoscope, as far as you know, the results you get from palpated and just seeing if the ribs are moving versus it's more reliable and it's more specific, it's more sensitive.

25:23 - jaydanto

So it's like this great test. And what happened was when we switched to the Bates book, which is like a nursing book, you know, originally was a nursing book and they is really well formatted, so it ended up becoming something that was generally adopted by apathic and osteopathic schools. As for the physical examination book, For whatever reason, they don't have feeling for respiratory excursion and they, they dropped it. So it's,

25:52 - Anna Esparham

never done that.

25:53 - Anna Esparham

I don't think so as an Md. No, I don't think I've ever learned that.

25:57 - jaydanto

Yeah, but it used to be part of the standard examination and It so,

26:00 - Anna Esparham

Oh my word.

26:02 - jaydanto

and the neat thing is it so with, with Omm. You can treat these ribs and people get better, faster. And not only that, like you know, if once you learn a little bit of visceral manipulation, you find out that you can. Manipulate the faces of the lungs that relate to the lungs and that allows the medicine to get there. It allows the fluid to get pumped out better and you know, the lungs to iterate better. So it's really just one of those neat things you can do with manipulation and you know, I, you know, you, you know, So here I've, I've been talking for a little bit, I'm talking about these medical things that I've treated.

26:40 - jaydanto

So um, yeah, you're right, the bread and butter things that I treat and in a day toy practice is going to be pain. But it's like I treat a person as what I treat and, you know. We see patients with all sorts of things and we're improving their, their foundation of their health is what we're doing when we treat the Mosco skeletal system and uh, it's, you know, we had a patient call this past week. And they're call, they're moving from out of state. And she was like, I'm trying to decide where I want to move.

27:18 - jaydanto

And I saw, I found your website and I wanted to call if you are you a real osteopath? And I'm like, yes, I'm a real osteopath. And she, so you do osteopath manipulation, the gentle stuff. I'm like, yes, I do gentle type of treatments. When I treat people, I My understanding of Vast has progressed from when I was a student to now. And I, I mean, it's like, the funny thing is like, I don't, I I mean I was very success i've been very successful i've been very blessed i've been very lucky but I I feel like I'm a little bit better now than I was back when I started twenty five years ago and when I treat people I listen I'm really it's really about listening and I listen more than I you know I if I go in thinking I'm gonna do this Why would I do something without listening to somebody's body?

28:25 - jaydanto

So I, my job is to listen and respond and I, I tell people all the time that. I don't treat your body. I listen to what your body is saying. It ask me to do, I then I do what it tells me to do. Why would I try to do something that's not telling me to do? And so when you do that, you have a different, a different patient experience. People will sit there and it's, it's very hard. For the past quarter of a century, I've been trying to figure how do I explain what I do as being different from chiropractic.

28:59 - jaydanto

And I think what it's coming down to. And I'm not saying that there aren't chiropractics who listen to the body and treat. I'm saying that There's people who go in with a certain, you know, I'm gonna do X, Yy, and Z, but I don't force anything. I listen and let the body do what it wants to do. And usually when you do that, people's bodies like that and then their musculoskeletal system, their nervous system, their whole being can respond in a really positive way. And it's, it's.

29:35 - jaydanto

Transformational, that's what it is.

29:38 - Anna Esparham

How would you? Because I always get asked this question and it's, I think it's hard for me to explain because I haven't been doing any osteopathic manipulative medicine for very long. I've just taken, you know, a couple courses and, and so everyone's like, well, what is that? I mean, how do you explain it to uh, patients and how do you explain it to students? Cause I also coach a lot of uh, college students going to med school and nobody, none of these college students know about do schools, they don't understand what goes on in a do school.

30:14 - jaydanto

Boy there's some tough questions there right number one how do I explain uh ask you to people you know uh there's the there's a a short thirty second answer which is like well it's very similar to chiropractic uh we both are treating the musculoskeletal system and we're both trying to optimize health and then, there is a longer answer, which is like, you know, there's You know, again, and that gets into the, I listen, I, I sit there and I listen to the patient and I examine their body.

30:53 - jaydanto

And the best thing, the most funnest thing is when what the patient has told me matches what their body is telling me, that becomes, because that's usually and that's 80 to 90 % of the time, but there's, you know, ten to 20 % of the time. Things don't exactly match up and it's, it's so funny because I again, I saw a patient this week and you know, she's, she's like I, you know, she's in her seventies, she hass arthritis and both knees. Herr right knee is problematic, it's swelling up and her left knee isn't.

31:27 - jaydanto

I'm like, do you remember any traumas? No, did you ever break any bones? Yes, I broke my right leg, You know. My right leg, and then I also you know. B the ankle broke my right ankle. I'm like, okay, so that's why the knee is, you know, she says, a torsional fracture with it. I'm like, yeah, that could, that could create some strains within the tissues. You know, one of the there, one of my friends used to talk about, there's a guy, Dr. Bone, he's an orthopedic surgeon, true story. And he says a fracture is a soft tissue injury with bone involves, so a broken bone is a soft tissue injury with bro, bone involve.

32:57 - jaydanto

All right, So a soft tissue injury is all right. A fracture or broken bone is a soft tissue injury with bone involved and you know, so that kind of talks about the seriousness of the soft tissue and uh, its relationship to the bones. And so, you know, that's why. So she, and then, you know, so we're talking a little bit more and she's like, and, and then I have a, does she have, she is, she is a I don't even remember what she had now. No, it's bugging me, but all right. Well, I'm sorry we I hope you cut it out.

33:43 - jaydanto

All right. So that was soft tissue with bone involved and you know, so that's. And so that was 30 years ago and she hadn't thought about it and 30 years ago that she broke her ankle and you know now she's got knee,

33:51 - Anna Esparham

Oh, it was 30 years ago and now oh,

33:58 - jaydanto

knee problems and so Um, you know, it's, you know, that part of the history that people don't think about that those, those it's left in our tissues are, our experience in life is, is there and we, you know, not every, you know. Not everybody gets things treated. You don't know how many patients I see who have had, for instance, carpal tunnel syndrome surgery. And I'm like, did you have physical therapy efforts? No, you just went and had surgery and that just Oh yeah, you would be better and you know, that was that.

34:40 - jaydanto

So it's that, that follow up and that follow through and that understanding of, of the complexities of the body. I mean I, I am in a really neat place that I get to be observant of people, I get to talk to them, I get to take my time with them and find out what they're about. Their history relates to their body and sometimes they forgot that, but I, I can remind them of it and then we go ahead and treat them and they say, wow, it really does feel better. So.

35:13 - Anna Esparham

It kind of reminds me, I think I had some manipulation just to try it out once when I was going to. I think it was my integrative medicine fellowship and at the time I was having pretty severe endometriosis, constipation, yeah, pretty severe menstrual cramps at the time and I think I can't remember what happened, but it was like some manipulation of my pelvic area or my S E joints. And I just remember like it like everything after that was just so much better, like the pelvic pain, the menstrual cramps, the constipation for just several weeks after I got that manipulation, how I mean, so How does that correlate?

36:02 - Anna Esparham

Because you talked about visceral manipulation, but even if you're just working on the muscular skeletal system, how does that correlate to like internal disease?

36:15 - jaydanto

All right, see, this is a tricky one. There's been research to, to look at, you know, semantic dysfunction or you know, basically. These dysfunctions within the muscular skeletal system result in development of tissues. And you know, they, they used to, they did, they've done research, we have like a lot of research actually built on asthetic profession, that is, is good research, but it's older now so you know they did twenty five thirty years ago they were inducing somatic dysfunctions in bunny rabbits cervical spine and then also in like the upper thoracics and then You know this was a long time, this.

37:11 - jaydanto

They don't do the same work, but they sacrificed the funny rabbits. And they looked at their hearts, funny rabbits that did not have sect dysfunction, you know, induced, so like a trauma induced or whatever in that's neurologically related to the tissue versus bunny of rabbits who, who did have that induced and they the literally the heart. Of the bunnies who had them dysfunction were smaller did not beat the way they're supposed to beat the So it's like, it's very fascinating how that relates and what.

37:50 - jaydanto

There was some great research done when I was at Michigan State while I was there, and what we were looking at was the something called Smc dysfunction burden, which is the severity of the Smac function. That was done by Karen Snyder and a group of us. So it's like we, you know, there's a couple different you, my names on one of the papers. When we were examining these patients in the hospital who were getting like endoscopies where they put a tube down your throat and then they also getting colonoscopies.

38:24 - jaydanto

Not always the same patient, but they, you know, so they were looking, colonoscopy where they're looking up the rectum and into their lower intestines. And so what we found out was that we could, I if the Cmus function burden was high in a particular set of tissues and the semis function is indicated by. Burden is indicated by. The tissues are tender, the there's uh restriction and motion There's uh, you can palpate, feeling of the tissues is different in that area. It's different from the tissues around it.

39:14 - jaydanto

And this is an outside the body that correlated with pathology found in the intestines or in the esophagus, in the stomach. And so that was, you know, pretty to me that's groundbreaking research. And we actually just, well, and then the other thing was she did done another study that they looked at low back pain and they found that if Imagine this if the Smt Dss function burden is high, then the in a patient with low back pain indicated. Osteopathic treatment would be more successful as opposed to people who had low back pain and the Sma dysfunction burden was low.

39:58 - jaydanto

To me, you know, when I tell this to my colleagues who are like, Phds, you know, researchers, they're like, so Jay, basically you're saying that when you looked at patient that actually, actually had the disease and used Omt as the treatment and they, you know, they got better. It would be like saying that if you had somebody who had cancer versus somebody who didn't have cancer. Or you had if you had cancer, if they had cancer for one thing and they had cancer for another thing, you said, well, let's just give them this cancer drug.

40:33 - jaydanto

It only treated the one disease and didn't treat the other disease. Then, you know, it's only gonna work in the one patient. So most osteopathic research, which is kind of sad, has been done. Try and use um oste apy like a like, like a drug. So it's like, oh I, the complaint is low back pain. We'll just go ahead and look at all these. You just throw some osteopathy on it. So there was some osteopathic manipulation at it. Well, the patient need the osteopathic that a patient is going to benefit from most.

41:06 - jaydanto

So to me, I think that the greatest research is yet to come because I'm hoping that they'll start doing osteopathic research on people who have a higher Smac dysfunction burden. So that would be somebody who has more signs of dysfunction playing a bigger role. Now the, the neat thing about the body is, that doesn't always mean that Omt will be helpful. An osteopath that looks at the, you know, body minded spirit So it's not just manipulation that plays a role, it's a matter of what's going on in a person's life.

41:43 - jaydanto

Let's say they have pain and they get manipulation, they feel better. You know, they might have depression there tooo. And suddenly when that feeling better, you know, that sense of well being is restored. They have less depression and so then that gets so it kind of can snowball. So it's, those are all things that, are some of the neat things about, treating people and, and using. I have a, a patient with post polio syndrome right now and post polio syndrome is, A sequal of polio in which a person has pain and they have fatigue and you know, they can become depressed.

42:30 - jaydanto

And the thing neat thing about it is when she gets her manipulation, she feels like she's been restored, she feels like she's got energy. She feels like she can do stuff again. She doesn't have the pain that she had and uh, you know, it's like you're giving people back their life. It's, it's really humbling.

42:48 - Anna Esparham

Wow I um it's it kind of reminds me of uh because we're both medical acupuncturists and so it when you're talking about um the somatic dysfunction burden um so for example if someone has yeah a lot of you know thoracic pain and they've lived with it for years for example they get skin changes because their nerves are so irritated and they're spewing out inflammatory substances and then over time nerves actually connect to the heart nerves and so then the heart gets affected. So it all, everything is just so connected.

43:29 - Anna Esparham

And I think that's why learning osteopathic medio of medicine is. So it's such an important abject, especially for, you know, us physicians who are dealing with chronic health issues because not only are we treating and helping improve pain, but also lymphatic, you know, system, the immune system, the sleep, Organ function, I mean blood flow, circulation, you name it. And so it's kind of that cascade of, yeah, restoration that you talk about.

44:09 - jaydanto

It is, I mean there is a lot of correlation between, acupuncture and osteopathic medicine, definitely. I and um, you know, the neat thing about it, you know. Twenty five years ago when I was first exposed to acupuncture and one of my managers said to me yeah you'll be able to you know if you get really good at manipulation you'll be able to affect the a You puncture channels and do changes, you know, and that is a hundred percent true. And you're gonna, you, you know, you're 1st of all now that you know you can do that.

44:48 - jaydanto

And the neat thing is like you can develop your senses to actually palpate the, the flow of Chee in the body, which is cool. And you know, it's like in, in these different levels of G because you know, you've heard about the, you know, your superficial channels, you have deep channels. You can palpate those different levels and you can palpate the flow of energy in the, you can say, okay, this person has, you know, this acupuncture. Rom So I'm doing less acupuncture than I used to. I still love doing acupuncture, but I don't get to do as much as I like to do, you know, as I used to do.

45:25 - jaydanto

So it's like, it's, but it's, it's really fun to, to see that and to, you know, understand, it's, you know, I always tell people it's Easier. I always start off with doing manipulation because it's easier to make an energetic change. Using the mechanics. So if you improve somebody's body of mechanics a lot of times, their Che will improve. You know, but to sit there and say, Oh, I'm gonna go ahead and do some vacuum function and that's going to change the way their mechanics are.

46:03 - jaydanto

That's true too. But it's a little bit harder. But the about Some people absolutely need both and some people benefit one more from one than another.

46:07 - Anna Esparham

okay.

46:13 - jaydanto

And they certainly there, certainly some things I've found um, seemed like they responded better from um. Acupuncture, then from manipulation and uh, you know, it's like I, you know, I'm, I'm continually humbled because it's like I, as I've gotten better at both things, I us to think, oh, I'm gonna have to do acupuncture and manipulation. It's like I get better with just manipulation or, you know, even the, you know, the contra positives do the same thing with acupuncture. I'll sit there and I'll do an acupuncture treatment, I'll go and check the patient.

46:50 - jaydanto

Like, well, I guess I don't need to do manipulation to. So it's, it's uh, it's all very uh, You know, interesting as you get, you know, better with both things, it's, it's really neat.

47:04 - Anna Esparham

Yeah, I just, I, yeah, I wonder, you know, as I learn more since I'm going back to residency, if I'll, if I'll get there at some point and just figure out which one is, the patient needs. A lot of, so our back at my headache, and pain clinic for teen or for kids really. They just did acupuncture. I mean it was like their favorite treatment all day long. We were completely full. We couldn't even handle the demand. Because of how beneficial the acupuncture was for their headaches and migraines and sometimes other types of pain as well.

47:44 - Anna Esparham

And the research shows that too. I mean there's the, it's actually very good. Acupuncture is very good for headaches and migraines, but I also know that osteopathic techniques are very beneficial, especially if there is some biomechanical issues which are very common in teens who have posture issues, who have weakness in certain muscles and or even aren't just, you know, using Or even doing as much physical activity as as, kids should be doing, I would say so.

48:22 - jaydanto

Eat.

48:24 - Anna Esparham

So it'll be interesting to see uh, what happens. But I'm excited, I'm excited to move forward with osteopathic neuro muscular skeletal medicine. We'll see how well I do. I, I'm an Md by training everyone, so I don't have as much back. Background as Dos do. And that's why when I coach a lot of students, especially in college, I do teach schools because a lot of them don't know about it. And I really find do schools really, you learn a whole lot more than Md schools because you get that extra training in the muscular skeletal system as well as the manipulation piece.

49:06 - Anna Esparham

So yeah, I'm a huge advocate.

49:09 - jaydanto

Somewhere between 80 and Uh. Close to two hundred hours extra depending on the school so it's very interesting um a lot of pressure in this world because of the information overload that we are going through with research and so there's always more to learn. My, my daughter is a 3rd year medical student, so I and you know, I was tea and teacher over a decade in osteopathic schools. And I, I can tell you that, I, I appreciate Um, that we didn't have, we know, you know, the limitations of what I had to know when I was a student compared to what they have to know.

49:56 - jaydanto

But I think also, you know, it's, and it's funny because it's like they, You know I I'll liken it to this. When I was on my rotations as a student. You know, I think we're on Harrison The Book of Internal Medicine, 11th edition. Okay, so and it might have been 14th edition, but it was one of those editions. Okay, it was a, you know, it was a big book with really small words and Pretty and uh,

50:20 - Anna Esparham

I know that book.

50:22 - jaydanto

you know, very thin pages and you know, they, the next volume came out and it was two volumes because they couldn't fit it all into one book. Came across the 3rd edition of Harrison's I'm like looking at this book and I thinking, oh my goodness, this is like thick pages, bigger writing, totally doable. I mean, back then it was like, oh uh, you know, for Mal, cardio infarction, what you need to do is you need to rest the patient. There's this new drug called heparin out sounds pretty crazy, but we think it might be helpful for people Though restful,

51:00 - Anna Esparham

Oh, my gosh.

51:04 - jaydanto

you know, it's like you patients were just to go well, they need to be, be in bed for about a week if they have a heart attack, if they survive. So you know, that was God. With it. It was a very different approach and I could definitely see where, you know, back when, you know, Ot after was new, we definitely had A leg up on hospital treatment. And things, you know, I think we're, I think Osteo is still needed in hospitals. It saddens me. You know, there's, you know, that there's not an osteopath in every hospital doing manipulation.

51:44 - jaydanto

It's like, and the, the sad part, that's the other sad part about it for me is that like people wouldn't know, like, you know, like you're going to be in Atsu. And you're going to go and you're going to see patients in the hospital who have pneumonia. For every um, 14 patients that you see, with pneumonia, you save one life. That's huge, you know, when I sit there and I look back and think about the patients I've seen along the way, I mean. You know, I I you know, you know some of those humbling experiences I didn't quite get to tell you about.

52:32 - jaydanto

I mean here in Michigan. I was sitting there my Mom had ablation, a cardiac ablation therapy where they go in. They tried to burn little autonomous pacemakers for her heart because she had an arrhythmia. Well, the Dr., that she was seeing the cardio, the cardiac, the cardiac specialist who's, you know, supposed to be really good at this. He's no longer this hospital that he's at. He got ran out of town, I think, but he sat there, he put a hole through my mom. Sorry, they didn't tell me about it.

53:09 - jaydanto

You know, So I literally had, he was holding down to my mom's legs, you know, doing, you know, and just trying to help her nervous system continue to function and send energy and You know, through and make sure that things were continuing to, move, you know, as far as the normal motion of the fluids of the body. I had. I did that for about two She was shocking for about 2 h and uh, you know, she had a, you know, she could have died and it's like, you know, I, I think about patients like that.

53:47 - jay danto

That I've seen along the way. You know, it's just very humbling that it's, you know, I, I feel guilty that I don't. I, you know, I've, when I was here in Michigan, I was on staff at like four hospitals. And I, the only possible, I didn't go and see patients in the hospital, you know, didn't open myself to seeing patients. That was probably the hospital that they would have consulted me at, and that's because they had a residency program. I want them to consult the residents. So as you know, at these other hospitals, nobody ever consulted in the hospital for an osteopathic physician.

54:24 - jay danto

I just, I think about that. If we could just get to the point where we're looking for some Act dysfunction burden in patients where it makes sense, you know, I, you know, I sat there, I saw patients who are like, oh, I have. You know, consulted because they had neck pain and while they were having a my card infarction, they had neck pain for ten years. They consulted me because, oh, they had neck pain and they were being airlifted out to get, you know, a stunt put in, treated the patient's neck and she's like, I can't believe it took me to have a heart attack to get rid of my neck pain of ten years.

54:58 - Anna Esparham

Oh, my gosh.

55:00 - jay danto

There is probably a good chance that neck pain was, partially generated from the, you know, ischemia problems that she was having in her heart and it just wasn't recognized. You know that's goes back to those studies that were done twenty five years ago see we kind of came full circle back to those studies and the you know the thing is like uh you know that's not commonly available and for patients in the hospital it just drives me a little batty but uh you know I'm just happy to uh be able to see my patients in the kansas city area right now help people.

55:40 - jay danto

I, you know, and, you know, I still, you know, patients still reach out to me here in Michigan to, you know, for advice. And I mean, it's just like, it's just uh, very humbling, you know, the more I uh, go on in life, the more I realize I don't know, you know, it's like I, I don't I, I, I realize, that I'm pretty much an expert in this osteopathic stuff, but at the same time there is so much more and there's just, you know, I'm so ignorant about so many things and I, I will own that. And, you know, with when patients come to me and they ask me about things, I always tell, you know, I don't know, but I'll learn more about it and see what I can come up with.

56:24 - jay danto

Because I know that my resources are different from your average patient. Because I'm a professional and I can go look at things in a different light and I've been, you know, if anything, my resources, resources from education experience from being a physician in hospital, in the, you know, being department chair at different places and you know, schools and everything. I've had to learn how to become a really good researcher to a certain extent and uh, I think is beneficial to my patients.

56:59 - Anna Esparham

Well, I mean, it's interesting that you say that because. One of the reasons why I decided to leave a director of this treatment center at the hospital, at this large academic medical center that I was working at, was because they weren't allowing osteopathic manipulation even though, you know, 30 or 40 % Dos were on staff and I think they, the leadership, had a total misconception of what You know, Omm is. And so they thought it was too dangerous for children, it's too dangerous for adults and um, it's too much liability when most of what we do has, is.

57:42 - Anna Esparham

Very gentle. And actually all the research that's been done, especially in children, that I know about from putting on workshops at the national organizations is there are no adverse reactions in children if you're doing it the correct way. And you have the experience. So You know, that's why I'm going back and, and learning, because I just find that it is a huge service to patients, especially with all to save a life. I totally agree with that. There's so many other things that we can do that's not in conventional health care right now that we can definitely be saving more lives, we can be helping more people with many, many complex health issues.

58:27 - Anna Esparham

Mm is definitely beneficial.

58:31 - jay danto

It's, it's a lot safer than the position. Pa Position Statement for the Osteopathic Association on cervical manipulation is that Um Osteopathic manipulation, It's like a million on average, uh cervical manipulations have an adverse reaction but like for somebody who's on like aspirin it's like one and two hundred thousand you know there's you know uh hundreds of a hund over a hundred thousand uh admissions a year because of non stor Atl anti inflammatory related problems to the hospitals across our just our country.

59:23 - jay danto

It's actually well over that, but I'm being conservative,

59:25 - Anna Esparham

No, it No, there's more.

59:28 - jay danto

You know, there's so, you know, but when it comes to like osteopathic manipulation, I can assure you that it's like uh, knock on wood, I, I've been pra. Seen for uh twenty five years and I haven't had anyone who's had an adverse reaction from it i've had patients who in pain when they came in and you know, they didn't get better from a treatment, you know, and uh, you know, it's like I don't, you know, my goal isn't always to make somebody pain free. Now it's, it's a little bit better because I can, you know, if it's not to the point where I'm like satisfied with it, I might do some acupuncture instead.

1:00:11 - jay danto

You know, I add that in but uh, you know, generally I mean, it's even, you know, but the majority of people, you know, like 90 % of the people who leave my office, leave feeling better than when they came in. It's probably higher than that, but it's, you know, and, and it's like, it's, it's kind of, it's interesting because I'm, you know, it's in the past, my, this office has been open about six months and the only problem is I, I'm getting people. Well, almost as fast as I'm getting new patients.

1:00:41 - jay danto

So like, and it's like, and that's why I'm like, I guess, I guess I'm getting better because instead of it taking, you know, I used to tell people it takes me about four treatments to get to know the way your body works and, you know, I'd like to see you once a, once to every one in two weeks and while I get to know the way your body works and then from there we'll just start spacing out. Now it's like, you know, it's really, I say, I'll say three or four, but it's really three treatments and then You know, and it's, and the funny thing is sometimes they're getting better after one or two treatment.

1:01:14 - jay danto

So it's like, man, this stuff is like, maybe I'm getting really good at what I

1:01:18 - Anna Esparham

You're getting really good.

1:01:18 - jay danto

which Is great for patients, and it's like, and you know, ultimately they send me more, more people, but it's like, it's so funny because it's like, I, you know, it's, it's definitely a different type of practice than I've ever had and it's, it's, very satisfying in a lot of ways to see patients. Get better. I, there are patients who are chronic pain patients who, They're just looking to feel better in between treatments. And uh, you know, I remember the 1st, the one of the, my earliest patients I saw, I was, I was moonlighting for myself during my residency.

1:02:02 - jay danto

At another hospital and I was their pain management speci, was there Omm specialists there. That's when, you know, the Michigan State was said that, you know, requiring schools to have or hospitals to have Omm. So I was their pain management specialist and I'd have a Saturday clinic. In would come in. These patients, who were uh, you know, this one lady came in, she was, she was in her eighties, she never had a pain dain her life, never. And then she got a 30 degree burn on her shoulder.

1:02:37 - jay danto

And she said, You know. She was in the hospital and she said at the end of a week that superficial pain suddenly felt like it went deep into my, you know, bones. Ended up she came in with a stack of X rays about an inch thick. X ray just like they, they rated her from top to bottom. She walks in looking.

1:02:58 - jaydanto

Her body was riddled with arthritis, never had That That arthritis did not develop overnight.

1:03:00 - Anna Esparham

oh. geez.

1:03:06 - jay danto

That's been there. She was active her entire life. She was active and even examining her, it's like, you know, I was very impressed with, you know, The way her, you know, muscle skeletal system was. So I started treating her. I would ask Herr every time, you know, How are you doing, what's going on, you know, she'd say how do you feel? And she's about the same. So after, you know, six months of treatment, I said, man, you know what, I don't feel like, I'm doing anything for you, you're coming in every week.

1:03:39 - jay danto

I'm seeing you and um, you're just, you say that you, you're about the same as Dr.. Dante. You misunderstand me. I'm like, oh, and she's like, yes. When I 1st started seeing you, I feel better for a day and then I started feeling better for two days and now I feel better for three days and so I said, so what you're saying is at this rate. By the time, you know, you'll be like, better for like a week or two, in about six more months and I'm like, yeah, and I'm like, oh, and it's like, you know, that, you know, that was like I was very early in practice, I didn't understand, like, you know, I just, I just felt like, You know, I didn't understand dosing.

1:04:23 - jay danto

I, you know, I didn't have huge mentors in my training, you know, who were doing manipulation, so I didn't have anyone, you know, like, you know, they were, I was, did a little bit of work at the school where I was at and I was worked with those guys there and you know, they were seeing crime. Patients pretty regularly. But I, I didn't, you know, wasn't always there every day. I was there a couple times a week. So it's like when I finally sat there and I, I had to figure all this, all these things about dosing and how often people need to be seen on my own.

1:04:54 - jay danto

And it's just so neat You know, and, and it's one of those things where like when, you know, when do you want to see this patient next? And it's like, I'm always, and I'm trying to figure out, like judging where their muscular skeletal system is, where can it be? You know, I do a exercise prescription with my patients. You know, to the tomb where everyone, everyone eventually gets some kind of exercise prescription. I've written a book on normalization of muscle function. Exercise prescription is a big part of that.

1:05:27 - jay danto

I have at my website and, and that's totally, free for people to go and see is it says self care and it has exercise prescription, things that are They're pretty important for people to do. So it's, it's, it's something. I mean, I literally got up this morning and did, a lot of the exercises that are just right on my website and it's like, it's and, you know, I I have to do that to keep myself healthy. So it's like we take for granted often that the way our bodies work, but we're also in a time.

1:06:05 - jay danto

I think in general people are not taking for granted as much and they do yoga, they do all sorts of things. Then they can sit there and they say, well, I'm doing all these great things for myself. I do cross fit how I'm not feel. H I don't feel great. And it's like, you know, it's like I'm like, you know, it's like it gets back to like, yes, you are in great shape as far as your muscles and, and your, you know, tendons, but you know, maybe that's not what your body wants at the point in your life?

1:06:40 - jay danto

Yeah,

1:06:41 - Anna Esparham

No, exactly,

1:06:41 - jaydanto

it's,

1:06:42 - jay danto

it's a, it's a very interesting thing, you know, aging and activity and what our bodies are trying to communicate to us. And it's like I said, we, we try to tell, you know, just like I was, you know, in my practice, I, it's much better if we learn to listen Then to just, you know, tell our boy, well, this is what we want you to do, you know, if we can learn to listen, if we can find that groove so that we're working with our bodies and working with ourselves and generally we're healthier.

1:07:16 - Anna Esparham

And that's what I try and teach and my coaching programs is that is pretty much the mainstay of your own using your own intuition to heal yourself because you are your greatest teacher, you're your greatest healer, and you just have to take the time to listen. And we don't often. I mean, I took, it took me quite some time to figure out, you know, that piece for myself for a lot of the health issues I've experienced. So um, so tell us a little bit about your clinic before we wrap up, so people know where to find you, how to make an appointment, where you're at the whole deal.

1:07:53 - jay danto

Well, we are um, on the corner of We're, we're on the corner of Barry Road and north, ok, traffic way, just a little bit north of Gladstone in Kansas City and just down the street from uh, what's that mall that's out there?

1:08:15 - Anna Esparham

I know it, it is, yeah, that isn't that where, where I used to work, Children's Mercy, wasn't there that clinic there too,

1:08:23 - jay danto

Yes, that's exactly right. They have a Children's Mercy Clinic out there

1:08:26 - Anna Esparham

I just can't remember what's called.

1:08:30 - jay danto

Oh great. My mind block is uh, is,

1:08:33 - Anna Esparham

I'm terrible at names.

1:08:35 - jay danto

Okay, Well, you know, I'm.

1:08:37 - Anna Esparham

North of Kansas City.

1:08:43 - jay danto

It's uh, it's about 15 min from the A it, so that is that, you know, it's that, it's uh, it's about 15 min from downtown. It's a really neat area. I really, enjoy being in that area. It just seemed like the right place and a lot of things came together. The clinic at the right time, you know, found the right place. It's so funny because it's a, it's a office, is it was a credit union before You know, before I entered it, it was so funny. So it was in a place in this mall and it had like they're like, oh yeah, we have a perfect place where it used to be a car fracter s office and I looked at the C freighter's office, I looked at the credit union in office and I said, I think I want to be in the credit union hass great energy to it and it's like it's so neat.

1:09:41 - jay danto

Once you start uh, getting, you know, healing energy within a room, within a place, people feel better there. It's just like it's

1:09:52 - Anna Esparham

Appreciate.

1:09:52 - jay danto

Neat place because you know, it's like, I, I seee that happening already. It's like, you know, people, it, it's like people arrive and they feel better and that's just a wonderful thing.

1:10:04 - Anna Esparham

It is it, it makes a difference in your, the energy of the environment that you're in. And so, yeah, and I, I try and refer as many patients I can to you until I can start seeing my own patients, and then I definitely still wanna learn from you as soon as I can get out there before residency starts.

1:10:25 - jay danto

Well, yeah, you're, you're more than welcome and uh, I, you know, it's like I, I, you know, my entire career, I always wanted, I wanted to see Osteo grow, so I'm so happy. You're, I mean, I know you're an apathic physician, you're an Md, but that you're trained in osteopathy, I mean it's like I, I and I actually had I actually had, in my practice when I started in Michigan, I had for a year. A pediatrician who did a cranial manipulation, who is an Md and she had learned the cranial, oh, she had learned the cranial manipulation.

1:11:09 - jay danto

I think she was doing up Ledger Cranial and so she learned it. And she just was so moved by its promise that she wanted, that's the practice that she wanted. So she worked with in my office for about a year before she went and opened her own office. So that was really, really neat. To see her practice develop and uh, to see, you know, in, you know, to help her, and her growth. And I would love You know, do that for you as well.

1:11:42 - Anna Esparham

Well,

1:11:43 - jaydanto

I think it just a lot of fun.

1:11:45 - Anna Esparham

It's just, yeah, just keeping. Medicine to be more complete because so many people need it. It's just more holistic and complete and that's what i've always just been trying to go toward because you know learning what we've learned in md school is just not enough it's just definitely not enough to help our patients so yeah I'm excited to see what happens next um but thanks so much everyone you can find his clinic at dano osteopathic dot com it's uh d as in dog a n as in nancy t o osteopathic dot com so doctor j dante and I'll have everything in the podcast details and the show notes as well for you to check out the clinic It is just, I mean, one of the few clinics you know, in, in the area that I know of

1:12:46 - jaydanto

There is, I think there is three osteopathic clinics in all of, well. Three osteopath clinics in all Kansas City, one of which is uh, they're retiring and then the other one I not, I haven't been out to theirs that they're in the Kansas side. And then some of my colleagues at Kansas City University, where I used to teach at one point, they're opening up clinic, but they're part time, you know? So it's like, you know, hopefully we have some good hours available for people. I can't imagine.

1:13:25 - jay danto

I, it was so funny because I thought, I really thought that as soon as I open this clinic I'd be like busy, like gang busters. I just thought that, you know, people, you know, it's like, but I think that, I think like you had alluded to it There's a lot of Des Kansas City didn't have. Kansas City University didn't have the best rep at one point for osteopathic training. I think that, you know, they, they were pretty, they're, they're very basic, they're very basic. And they don't necessarily understand the specialty level which I can practice and what you're gonna be learning about.

1:14:05 - jay danto

And I think you're gonna, you're, it's like it's something people need and it's like, I, I just wish that. Were more aware of what we do. But the thing is, it is what it is, and I think it's going to, I think it's going to progress in Kansas City for sure. So I'm excited about the future and I'm excited about your future. So.

1:14:29 - Anna Esparham

And that's why we're having this podcast so people know more about it because so many of my patients that I encounter didn't know anything and I mean a lot of doctors don't know either so I'm hoping if you are listening to this podcast episode um you know please rate and review subscribe sharee the episode um I think a lot of people could use the help from an osteopathic physician especially if they're dealing with pain and chronic health issues um it's just so important to have as part of your care and so reach out to doctor dante at nto osteopathic dot com and thanks so much for being on the show doctor dante.

1:15:12 - jay danto

Thank you, Anna, I really appreciate you having me on the show. It's been a pleasure and uh, I'm, I, I'm so excited about, listening more to your shows. I, I've, I've, I, I Tru truly, I've been enjoying when I drove, I listened to a whole bunch of episodes. It's been fantastic.

1:15:31 - Anna Esparham

That's awesome,

1:15:32 - Anna Esparham

thanks.

1:15:32 - jay danto

Power.

1:15:33 - jay danto

You power her and your power and your energy and you empower her. Mint.

1:15:39 - Anna Esparham

Pow her baby. Thanks, Dr., Danto, we'll see you later.

1:15:43 - jay danto

All right, you take care. We'll talk to you later. Thanks again for having me.